Horus Maat


Shadow Work and the QlipothA Thread from the Horus Maat Lodge List

Nantiel by Stafford Stone

This was a conversational thread on the Horus Maat Lodge e-list which began with a question about magical workings with the Shadow and the Cells of the Qlipoth and digressed from there. Like many on-line conversations it has a certain roughness and immediacy, but my editing has been limited to a cursory spell-check and an attempt to arrange the posts and their responses in some semblance of coherent order. We hope this window on our world gives some sense of the flavor of our debates.

~  compiled by Shade Oroboros

Greetings All,                         93 / 696

Recently, Nema wrote:
“IMO, the hard work is in polishing one’s perceptions. This is why I say that
90% of Magick is trash-removal. I hope this helps.”


Well put & I hope this segues me nicely into a query
for the mages & sages assembled here.   I am
interested in all & any takes on working with one’s
“Shadow”.   By this, I do mean the Jungian type
Qlipoth, many denizens in our deeper mind, the
“sub-shadows” that seem to hold the “doubts that daunt
& the ills that irk…”;  & ultimately facing &
addressing / incorporating ones shadow.   I have found
countless pieces from various trads,  but am asking
here for advice from any who have done this type of
work.   Particularly working with a shadow “mask”,
contacting helpful guides, etc.   I know there are a
few practitioners onboard here who practice Ninpo.
Have you ever read “Mind of the Ninja” by Kirkland C.
Peterson?  While he approaches the subject throughout
the book, there isn’t any game plan given.  There are
also neo-pagan approaches with a heavy dose of Jung
thrown in for good measure, but at least it’s in
English.  As for contemporary approaches, David
Bowie’s old flick “The Labyrinth” is about the least
occulted contemporary account of making such a
journey, but I wouldn’t want to have to use it as a
“how-to”. I’m curious if that work wasn’t spawned in
him from his O.T.O. days. So, I am interested in this
form of “trash removal” (trash – management).   Any
hints at all would be appreciated.

Luminous Blessings to All,

Urla   303 aka  Wade



This is something I specialize in with my clients …and perhaps as a karmic
reflection of my previously hedonistic days.

For me the key is integration rather than denial.

Recognizing aspects of ourselves that we or society may consider unpalatable
and gaining a true understanding of ‘why’.  I use the gold Mahatma Ray for
this (synthesis) as part of various models of perception and energetic
expansion which I have evolved practically…also the violet transmutational
ray of which Reiki is an aspect.

For example the Ascension paradigm is based on drive towards expansion,
openness and unity…conversely I believe that the coagulation of some
energetic/spirit forms at certain levels of density may create sickness
dis-ease and bizarre imbalances within the universal continuum.  Working
backwards from this hypothesis and one may perceive the pure energetic root
of a behavior pattern and recognize the disturbance as the oddity of an
inevitable dissonance of density.  We may all be ONE but it ain’t
homogeneity thank GOD!  Thus my developing model of Fractal Pantheism which
is OPEN-ended and a kaleidoscopic paradigm of mutational permutation that
both cracks and unifies.

The tantrics referred to what I call lower ray vices as the dualistic dark
side of the lower chakras.

Finally I should mention the 401 current that I grounded some years ago…in
1998 working with Aiwass and I was instructed that the multi-aeonic word of
power was OPEN.  In Greek Katharos 401…needless to say this may
abbreviated to KA-OS…..SHADOW FLOW.

Shadow and light are apparent polarities in energetic flux.  There is a
microcosmic aspect to this and the Maatian method IMO is a deep, powerful
and enlightened system that aids the acceptance of all aspects of selves.




From my own experience with the Qlipoth, working with the Nightside
Tarot, I found them as energies to be “too free”, energies that tend
to run riot. In terms of integrating them, I found it highly
interesting that Crowley described them as “imprisoned” in (prison)
“cells”. Whilst they do need to be acknowledged and integrated, I
feel that integration is indeed a form of containment, required if
they are to be at all useful. Otherwise, allowed to run completely
free, they have a tendency to be extremely destructive and
disruptive. The best analogy I can think of is the disease of cancer:
the body’s cells merely doing what they’re naturally supposed to,
growing and replicating, but wildly out of control and ultimately
killing the host.
In terms of containing them, the forms you give them are a kind of
imprisonment, containing them in a limited and limiting way, with
limited abilities. So, rather than “imprison” them in a magical
triangle or some such (a la Choronzon), imprison (invoke) them into a
shape instead, perhaps in artwork, for example.

Attached is my interpretation of Niantiel.


Excellent work!  I want to see more!
Aside from which-I’ve found that in contacting any spirit or deity of any kind, day or night, it
only works if you/it is drawn to it/you.  You just have to follow the path that is power, and if
you are on the right track, it will become quite evident to you, most quickly….

You have read Linda Falorios Shadow Tarot, I assume?  And my rituals stemming from it in Typhonian
Teratomas?  There is a lot of dense info there…


My experience is very different.   Binding the Qliphoth is the same
approach used by old aeon magicians who sought to bind the demons of
the lesser key.

To me, binding the Qliphoth or the demons of the Lemigiton, or
anything else is a path to madness.

The purpose of magick (to me) is integration and the UN-binding of all
the things we lock behind walls within ourselves.


I didn’t mean to imply that medieval style “binding” was the best
method of dealing with the Qliphoth, I was merely pointing out that,
in my opinion, ANY form of interaction with them is a form of
limitation or containment, i.e. restricting their energies to work in
only the area you wish them to work in, or containing their form in a
piece of artwork. Otherwise, they have a tendency to be a bit too
chaotic, and may engineer results you may not want, not out of any
malice or mischief on their part, but just because that’s what they
do. However you choose to approach them and work with them, you need
to watch them: Even experienced lion-tamers don’t turn their backs on
the lions.


Another approach is to allow them to consume you, using your metaphor, become the very food they eat, what is healthy and nutritious will become a part of them and likewise you will remain, all the crap will be excreted. Have you every taken a look at the chod ritual of Tibetan Buddhism its worth looking at for other approaches to shadow work, thou that is taking it out of context. Letting them digest you will allow them to feed on all the parts of you that are broken empty shells.

Wolf Angel

In my opinion, binding is a restriction.   And why would I want to
bind any entity?   Not only humans have wills.   Thru interaction *as
equals* I come to harmonious mutually advantageous relationships with
the Gods, the elementals, Demons, the Qliphoth, and all else.   
Not saying I do not have squabbles with some classes of beings (like
palmetto bugs and muggers, for example), but the squabbles are to be
worked thru, rather than me just trying to bind or compel others.

Lion taming is a form of enslavement.   I don’t know about you, but I
have no use for slaves.


Mmm, maybe I’m not making myself clear.
Yes, lion taming is a form of enslavement. But it was a loose
analogy, and no way a condoning of circus practices. What I meant
was, if a lion tamer turns his back on the lions, their genetic
conditioning, regardless of any training or “taming” they have
endured, is such that they are likely to attack. An experienced lion-
tamer knows the limitations of his craft, and therefore doesn’t turn
his back on the lions.

It’s nice that you don’t want to bind any entity, and it’s lovely
that you consider their feelings, but when a mugger accosts you, do
you also feel sorry for them, and don’t want to judge their crack
habit, or begrudge the great personal sacrifice they are clearly
making in robbing you with violence? Sorry, but I do regard some
situations as to be approached with caution, and either avoided or
prevented if possible, rather than got into and “worked through”.
I’ve had all sorts of dealings with all sorts of entities, and most
have been fine. It’s just that in some situations, I’ve recognized
that they have the potential to do me more harm than I can do them,
and so I advise some caution, just as one usually swims with Great
Whites when in a cage, or wears oven gloves when getting something
hot out of the oven. Qliphotic entities do what they do, and I
believe it’s important to make people aware of that, just as sharks
eat, and hot things burn. Advising someone to walk right in without
apprising them of potential dangers, purely because of your own
philosophy, is downright foolish, in my humble opinion. I wouldn’t
send anyone amongst lions by telling them its fine, no matter how
friendly lions had been to me.


I have never met a non-corporeal entity which needed to be controlled
or constrained.    As I said, I sometimes get into confrontations with
muggers, palmetto bugs, and other critters which want to harm me.  I
smush bugs and pepper spray muggers.    But I have NEVER run into a spirit,
god, demon, aliphatic entity or any other non flesh-&-blood
critter which was in an adversarial relationship with me.   As an
example, I have no banished is close to 20 years, and did so
infrequently in the decade before that.   When I started magick, I
picked up all the bad habits of compulsive banishing, psychic
self-defense, etc.  But I figured out over the first decade or so,
that such a world view was not healthy for me.  Not saying that
worldview does not work for others.   But it was not useful for me.

Some people seem to live in magickal universes which are geared toward
one needing protections, banishings and putting various entities in
their place.    My experience demonstrates that it need not be that way.


Alobar, in many respects I’m in complete agreement with you: I
haven’t banished for years either, and I too have never met an entity
that appeared outwardly hostile. (Although when I consider certain
events and results in my life, I sometimes wonder whether I’d been a
little too trusting!) But this isn’t about me or thee: the specific
context was about giving advice to someone about working with such
entities, particularly the Qliphoth. It’s a bit like that guy (I
forget his name) who used to walk alone and unarmed right up to
grizzly bears in the wild. He was fine for almost 15 years, until one
ate him (and his girlfriend). Just because one person’s own
experience has been OK, doesn’t mean another’s will. In many
respects, these entities feed on what lurks in our shadows. As you
said, some people do need protection; often because they have a lot
of stuff lurking around that maybe should stay hidden, at least to
begin with. I’m just saying that these entities can be dangerous to
some people, and we have no way of knowing in advance who those
people will be. Therefore it seems prudent to advise caution, and
state in advance that there may be danger for some. These entities
have been regarded as dangerous and evil for hundreds, if not
thousands, of years: there is probably a very good reason for that,
and our modern view that maybe they aren’t so bad after all may
merely be a form of political correctness:-)

How many times have we all heard someone say of a serial killer “But
he was a really nice guy, such a quiet neighbor!? These people
clearly didn’t possess the triggers that turn the “nice guy” into a
killer, hence their experience is one of benevolence. But others, in
all innocence, look or behave in such a way that pushes the killer’s
buttons, with tragic results…

Like you, I too began magick with all the usual banishings and self-
defense, and later figured out I didn’t need them anymore. But…
perhaps we DID need them AT THAT POINT. Maybe the initial banishings
and protection were required, sort of like an inoculation or
immunization for the future….? That said, I don’t believe magick is
a science, it’s more of an art, and there are no hard and fast rules.
But, the fact is that, in any situation in life, someone who naively
walks in completely open and trusting is more likely to get hurt in
the long run.


To add to my previous post, I suppose I should clarify exactly what I
mean by “dangerous”. I do not mean to imply that these entities will
eat you alive, or lure you to some Lovecraftian-style doom. Rather,
the danger lies in the destruction of everything you hold dear. All
shadow work has consequences on this plane, in your physical life. If
you live alone, you may feel that you don’t have much to lose. If you
have a family or children, are happy and secure, reasonably wealthy
and comfortable with your life, then maybe you should leave well
alone. While these entities may not bear you any personal malice,
nevertheless they will take you out of your comfort zone and strip
away the dross from your life. Whether you see it as dross is another
matter entirely. I’ve worked in this area for many years, and I seem
to have survived so far; in many respects I now feel healthier,
happier, and more whole as a result. But I’ve also paid a great
price, in terms of the death of several loved ones, countless failed
relationships, lost jobs, lost friends, lost loyalties, poor career
moves, bad judgments, thefts, and sheer bad luck. (In one week
alone, in 2002, I got thrown out of where I was living, lost my job,
had around £3000 stolen, AND got an abscess under a tooth requiring
emergency surgery! That was some week, and by the end of it all I
could do was laugh! The previous year, I lost everything I owned in a
divorce, the house my father left me etc., and was made redundant
from my job within a month of all that.) Some, with hindsight, look
like prices that were worth paying, even if they didn’t seem it at
the time. Others however, like the young son I’m no longer able to
see, seem like a price not worth paying, and is something I’ll regret
to the end of my days.


sounds about right to me!


We disagree.   IMO, the belief that external entities can wreak havoc
with ones life, cause “bad luck” or need to be controlled or put in
their place is just paranoia.   I would NEVER counsel approaching the
Qliphoth as a beginner from a place of fear or from the assumption
that one has an adversarial relationship with them.    I treat the
Qliphoth no different than I do the gods.   They are, in some sense,
internal, and in another sense universal metaphors or mythic entities.
If one has an adversarial relationship with aspects of oneself, I
do not feel that one is headed toward integration and spiritual
enlightenment.   If one has an adversarial relationship with universal
mythic structures, one is going against the universal flow and is very
outclassed by the nature of the adversary one had invoked.

I counsel new people to play with the Qliphoth, the Goetia, the
Elementals, the Gods, and the Demons.  Dance with them.   Come to form
mutually beneficial alliances based on mutual understanding and mutual



I do agree with Alobar in much of what he is saying here. In my Work  with
Qlipothic entities, I found no adversarial or hostile tendencies. I  actually
learned a tremendous amount from my interactions with the Carcer Genii.
I also agree that they are in some sense internal. (internal, external, is
there a difference?)
I found that working with these “entities” helped me very much in  resolving
For those not ready to deal with said complexes, this work may have some
negative consequences, or may result in a resistance to addressing the complexes
that one  projects onto the “entities” as being hostility.
But still, go ahead and dance with them.
Fear not at all!!!!
Only those who fear shall fail.

Much Love to ALL


Well, all I can say is that I repeat what I said earlier: none of the
entities I’ve dealt with have been OUTWARDLY hostile towards me. But
it remains my firm belief that the work they have done on me has
resulted in some drastic changes in my life, and not all of those
changes have been changes I’ve enjoyed. Hence my assertion that these
entities deserve their appellation of “dangerous”.

I also note (with some wry amusement) that all of the people who have
worked with these entities and claim to have suffered no adverse
effects, are the very ones that also lost a great deal of
possessions, forced moving, or suffered various illnesses, as
detailed in various posts over the last year or two. In denial,


To reiterate what I said in my earlier post, one can have dangerous or
even fatal interactions with humans, animals, bugs. Walk into a swamp
unprotected and if the mosquitoes don’t drain all your blood, an
alligator may eat you. One can fight back or run.

One can get smashed by a hurricane or being lost at sea, but that does
not in any way imply that one should try to control the sea or the
hurricane.   Best to just get the fuck out of the way if possible.
Or just watch the awesome beauty as you impact a force far greater
than the self.

I have been in car wrecks, had friends die, and needed teeth
extracted.   I do not ascribe any of  these un-wanted events to
spirits or elementals or demons.  I do not ascribe any of these events
to any sort of magickal backlash because I did not keep tight control
over my magickal universe.

I tell newbies to discover their will, then do it.   It is a process,
so there will be errors in judgment.   Karma is real.  There are
consequences.   My bad teeth arose from my bad eating habits plus the
mistreatment by dentists.   No need to blame demons for the things
in life which one would have rather not experienced.  And asserting
control in an attempt to control external non-corporeal entities is, in
my opinion, not useful to impart to those newly exploring the realms
of magick.


Sorry, I just have to say this…
He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword….


You are, imo, being silly.   There is NO life in which there is no
tragedy or hardship.   All the control in the world isn’t going to
make this world a safe place.   Lovers die, friends have fights, and
hurricanes are a fact of life.  As we age, we get illnesses, then die.
The illusion of control over forces which one has no control of is
fucking dangerous.  The delusion that one controls all non-corporeal
beings is exactly the worldview which manifested as old aeon grimoires
for enslaving demons.

My friend Suzi, who began her magical career as a Luciferian Witch,
then became a Thelemite.   She came to the realization one day that
“Do what thou wilt” applied to all beings, and not just human
Thelemites.  She had a book of pacts with various demons she fought in
circle and gotten control over.   She called up each one of those
demons, read them the Book of the Law, and then released them.

Suzi had a severely messed up childhood and teen years.   She was
run-away junkie prostitute at 14.  She had many multiple
personalities.   Demonology is how she began to take control over her
loony self.   By force of will, she quit heroin, she quit cigarettes,
and she got into professional wrestling as a career.   She took charge of
her life.   And yet, she realized such battles for control were not in
her long term best interest.  Do what thou wilt applied to her demons
as well as to her.   That is a powerful realization for someone with
her painful background.

So she released her demons from bonds of iron, fire, and blood.  The
demons each signed her copy of the Book of the Law, acknowledging
that Thelemic principles apply to demons as well as human Thelemites
here upon the earth.

I learned a lot from Suzi.   Not my place to control spirit entities,
any more than it would be my place to control other mortals.

I know you are not talking about controlling the Qliphoth, but you do
not seem to apprehend that relationships between self and Qlipothic
entities is between free spirits, who each interact as he/she/it
wills.   You seem to view yourself as a parent with unruly Qliphothic

I am not saying you are wrong, or need to do things my way.   That
would be silly.   For some, like the young Suzi, it can even be useful
for a time — perhaps for you as well.   But the illusion is (imo) not
healthy in the long run, even if it has its place at a particular
stage of development.

I keep reiterating my perspectives because you talked about advice
given to those new to working with the Qliphoth.   From my
perspective, your advise is opposite of the advice I would give.
What newbies choose to do is up to each of them, but I want to make it
clear that not everyone agrees with your advice.



You seem to have COMPLETELY missed my point, and are working yourself
into a froth over your misapprehension. You are entirely wrong in
your assessment of me. You seem to be going down a road I wasn’t
pointing to. Perhaps the failure is in my communication skills, and
if so, I apologize. Whatever the reason, let’s drop this here, I
can’t be bothered to keep re-explaining my position to people who
can’t (or won’t) understand it.


I can see why he might work himself into a froth. You certainly seem to have
implied that Katrina and diabetes is an example of the Qliphoth coming to
bite the man on the ass.

Quite frankly, I have to side with Alobar on this. I have worked extensively
with these ‘forces’, and I am not ill, have not suffered setbacks, and have
not gone mad. I have no regrets, and what’s more, I dealt with these forces
in a manner very similar to Alobar. In fact, I would say my life is better
and more integrated for the fact. Not surprising since I view these forces
as I do all shadow energies. That is, close to the animal nature of the
brain. Contact with them certainly seems necessary for individuation. Rather
than being dangerous, the results (as I have oft noted in regards to
Nightside Mages and sages) often lead to great burst of creativity and
insight. Now is that surprising? This is precisely what Jung predicts in
regards to dealing with one’s shadow.

I don’t pretend to have the answers to this, but I suspect that this is a
case of “What the thinker thinks, the thinker proves.” You get what you
expect, as is so very often the case with magick in general. You are correct
about one thing: these are very dangerous forces….IF you repress them. IF
you bind them. As the saying goes, a god ignored is a demon born. From a
Jungian point of view, it’s not these “entities” that get you in trouble,
it’s YOUR reaction to the energies released that get you in trouble. Then
again, a great many magicians and mystics make it through their entire
career without ever hearing about these “entities’ or working with them.

This debate has arisen over a metaphorical, mythic symbol that only has
meaning in a very limited context, namely the Thelemic/Typhonian expression
of Qabala. Such literalism smacks of the same tomfoolery that led to the
historicity of Western religion in general, something which had brought a
lot of sorrow to the world. When discussing these things, it is best to
place it in context: it is a relative truth, not a literal one, that such
entities exist in the first place.

It’s just my opinion, and it is not my intention to enter into a debate or
fray. I do hope that I offered an alternative way of approaching the


In the Abra-melim system one must achieve K&CotHGA,
union with the angel, before invoking and controlling the demons. In Liber
Tzaddi, Crowley states that we all have one of each and should invoke both.
In Jung’s system, resolving the ordeals of the shadow is essential to the
integration of the Self. Recently I caught an insight from WB Yeats, who
spoke of a marriage of angel and demon, and of strongly identifying with
one’s demon as a method of attracting the angel, which may account for the
tendency of many mages (chaosians, pop-witches, satanists) to go Goth, wear
black, and identify themselves as occultists thru similar sinister glamours.
Do we not ultimately unify all opposites in the ALchemy of the Great Work?

~  Shade

“From his divine power comes forth all this Magical show of name and form,
of you and me, which casts the spell of pain and pleasure. Only when we
pierce through this magic veil do we see the One who appears as many.”
- Shvetashvatara Upanishad

Q: Does intercourse with the denizens of the shells totally and irrevocably mess up your “real” life and utterly destroy you beyond all hope of returning to your previous state?
A: It does if you do it right…

In my experience these creatures are, in accordance with ancient teachings,  responsive to the Word. The results of the old words of control and intimidation are well documented.  So just mebee there could be something to be said for these new Words…

Banishing as opposed to, for example, dissolving them in temple sleep always seems to get so very “whack a mole”

The ones you are afraid of, (i. e. “wrathful” ) are the least of your worries…

Soul devouring shuggoths from multiverse Z are light comic relief compared to human behavior.

In their great prezoharic work on applied succubus contact  “Treatise on the Sinister Emanations” Jacob and Isaac ha-Cohen state explicitly that the qlipothic entities  “form a ladder, on the rungs of which one may ascend unto the realms of prophecy” Everyone should have a hobby…

All these things do go away as soon as people quit feeding them…

And last but not least, “Any thing that does not kill you makes you sleep until 4 pm the next afternoon”.

Your pal,
Wil Whateley

I don’t want them to go away.   I want to dance with them!


I view the qliphoth as forces which are inherently antagonistic to this
universe, a sort of cosmic antimatter which seeks to devour the cosmos and
return it to the state of unmanifest chaos from which it emerged. That said,
I do work with them, but in doing so I recognize that I am dealing with
forces which are about as dangerous as weapons-grade plutonium.
I use them for work which comes from an antinomian gnostic perspective-That
in order to transcend the limitations of the demiurge and the material
realm, utilizing forces which are utterly opposed to the cosmic order is a
necessity.  I do think that there is validity to the idea of the
identification of the qliphothic forces with the  Jungian shadow-self, but I
agree with Rob that there is inherent danger when working with these
forces(perhaps even Lovecraftian doom)

Cort Williams

Grant likes to work in a magickal universe built around dire dangerous
energies.  Using Adrenalin to fuel one’s magickal energies can be
really rough on the adrenals and lead to adrenal exhaustion over
decades.    Much easier on the body to get one’s magickal engine
fueled on less taxing hormones.

In a very statistically small way, there is inherent danger in
blowing one’s nose, having sex, or crossing the street.  Working with
the Qliphoth is not, in my experience, more dangerous than any of


To each his own. Every point of view is valid to the individual and I
respect that, even it I cannot personally agree with it. If these ‘entities’
had the power to devour the cosmos, it seem highly unlikely that you or I
make a hill of beans difference in their eyes. How, precisely, does one
‘control’  or restrain such awesome cosmic forces capable of devouring the
manifest universe?

Let me lay this on everyone: what are these forces? Please try to define
them as specifically as you can. If you believe they are real entities
existing independently of us able to scheme the downfall of the cosmos
itself, what specific experience leads you to believe this? I ask that you
refrain your answer to personal verifiable experience and not an opinion
based another’s work. I am not asking to be antagonistic. I am merely
curious to see how much our members definitions vary as I am starting to
suspect that we are all talking about highly personalized and idiosyncratic


I tend to see the paths/tunnels or spheres/caverns or
dayside/nightside of the Tree of Life (or the overworld/underworld
transformations of the journey of Ra in the solar and lunar boats in
Egyptian myth) in new aeon terms of Horus as order and Set as chaos. The old
aeon obsession with good and evil or angels and demons seems to reflect the
paranoia and schizophrenic worldview that has screwed up western culture, us
versus them, the vilified Other and the excluded middle. Indeed, I sometimes
suspect that my HGA is one of the Fallen – were not they the ones who sought
to liberate mankind from a tyrant god?
For me the Magus weaves the shadows in-between darkness and light – one
cannot exist without the other.

~  Shade

“The ego and the Self dwell as intimate friends in the same body, like two
golden birds perched in the same tree. The ego eats the sweet and sour
fruits of the tree, while the Self looks on detached. For as long as you
identify with the ego, you will feel joy and sorrow.”
- Mundaka Upanishad


I had a unique vision of the Qlipoth/shadow work today on the beach- in
terms of renouncing Ego/ the Kleshas- detaching etc

I realized (my POV) that all the shadows are the realms of attachment we
work on dissolving:

Sphere of Shadow & Shadow:

Malkuth: Attachment to material sensations & suffering and STUFF

Yesod: Attachments to fantasies and illusions

Hod: Attachment to thoughts & ideas

Netzach: Attachment to love & feelings

Tipareth: Attachment to of a ‘self’ or ‘I’

Geburah: Attachment to hate-anger and violence

Chesed: Attachment to power & dominance

DAATH: Attachment to Fear/Death

Binah: Attachment to Mother (wisdom)

Chokmah: Attachment to Father (knowledge)

Kether: Attachment to God (Attaining, ‘spirit’ etc)

‘If you see Buddha on the road, kill him’
-Traditional Koan

Shruti! Shruti!


Aion 131

That is amazing…I’d never thought of it like that.  My interest at this
point in time is connecting Buddhist ideas with Magickal ones, and that’s
a fine idea there…

My view of the qliphoth comes partly from the teachings of 17th century
kabbalist Nathan of Gaza.
Nathan of Gaza wrote in “The Book of Creation” that within Ain Soph there
exists a “will to manifest”, and a corresponding antithesis, the “will to
return to mystery”. The latter is the root of the “Sitra Ahra”(hebrew for
other side), which is roughly equivalent to Grant’s concept of Universe B.
The qliphothic forces then, rather than being “evil” in a moral sense, are
simply the part of the transcendent will which desires to return all of
creation to an unmanifest state.

There are 10 qliphothic spheres which correspond with the 10 sephirotic
sphere. Just as each Sephirah has a corresponding archangel and angelic
order, so the corresponding Qliphah also is ruled by its own archdaemon,
etc.  This viewpoint is also present in the works of 13th century kabbalists
Jacob and Isaac ha-Cohen. So you can see, that in this view the qliphothic
forces are no more unapproachable than their angelic equivalents. While the
goal of the Sitra Ahra as a whole is to devour the cosmos, the individual
qliphothic forces are of course not capable of doing this in and of
themselves, any more than a single angelic order is capable of upholding the
entire cosmos.

I’m a bit hesitant to give examples from my own work other than to say that
I have observed a synchronous connection between certain of my workings and
some rather unfortunate events which have occurred, and that some of my
fellows did experience some striking misfortunes closely related to the
working as well.

Cort Williams

17th century was rife with all sorts of gloom and doom predictions by
people who wrote about things they never personally explored.   Such
doom-saying reminds me of old maps of the seas which had notations,
such as “here there be monsters.”


Sure-And I’ll be the first to tell you that Nathan of Gaza isn’t a
traditional kabbalist, to say the least, especially in view of his
connection with the highly controversial Shabbatai Zevi. But Isaac and Jacob
ha-Cohen came from 13th century Spain, the heart of the early kabbalah
movements. They did come from a school which was known for having a more
Gnostic outlook than some of their other fellows, but they were also known
for working extensively with practical Kabbalah as well.  Lurianic kabbalah
also presents a fairly similar picture of the Qliphoth, although some parts
of the cosmology are of course different that Nathan of Gaza’s outlook in
“The Book of Creation”.

Cort Williams

Interpretation of what *anyone else* writes is, IMO,  a crucial step
in any magickal exploration.    In an earlier post you referred to
Nathan’s concept of the “will to return to mystery”.    I have never
read the man, but I do not find that phrase to be a warning of
possible dire consequences.

In Malkuth we are in a  very dualist state.   Them/Us is a predominant
formula.   As we climb higher in the tree, we learn from, then meld
with entities/energies which our Malkuthian perspective once thought
of as being “them” and dangerous.

I can see the Qliphoth as  the “will to return to mystery”.   I would
not usually use those words.   “Crossing the Abyss” is a much more
familiar term to me.  Both phrases seem to be addressing similar or
overlapping changes in consciousness/perspective.

In my experience, what is threatened in any magickal direction which
attempts to resolve the Them/Us dichotomy is the little ego which
fears getting destroyed or left behind.   In my experience, the
little ego is not destroyed.   The little ego learns to  integrate and
merge with one’s angel, the Qliphoth, and all else.

I am not saying that the process is entirely safe.  Some people
shatter when their ego is threatened.   Some people suicide or have
fatal misadventures.    But such is the nature of magickal
exploration.  Explorers into new territory always take a risk.   Any
magickal endeavor which has no risks to the ego is probably not going
to do anything of substance, so why bother to do it?



The way I learned:
Qliphoth means “shell”, aiming to that that is without an essence of itself,
and that tends to its own growing decadence. This decadence (it’s a
paradox) won’t stop growing until it is linked with and burnt in the spirit
of the Magician, for his must be the power to give life as Hadit states.
The Qliphoth is the Adverse Tree, this tree leads to individuation or the
antinomian path, so that you become a deity yourself, filled with the purest
light by going against the order of its creations. To do this you must
cause disorder and enter its gate.
The way I learned, the Tree of Life is a perfect image of equilibrium in and
trough all planes of existence, the qliphoths form (or exist in the
space/time) when the paths between the spheres are incomplete and with
no support in which to balance themselves (psychotic people suffer from
disconnection, and from it also Choronzon rises). It is the “Tree of Death”,
made of unbalanced life in its various shapes.
Now this unbalance means sickness, and it may be sickness of the mind, of
the soul, of the body, of the world around you. All problems of the psyche
and of the body inhabit the Qliphoth. And why so? Because perception and
consciousness is not elastic (it must be trained to REMEMBER, to awake),
most of the time, it doesn’t penetrate all things above and below like that
stone in Tablet Emerald. And all things means more things than the things we
usually remember, “there is more on heaven and earth than your vain
philosophy can imagine” (to the Artist here is the eternally creative side of
the qliphoth, accessed by or giving access to Daath as it manifests). This is
why I consider Initiation to be Conscience Expansion. I think Jack Parsons
would agree with me in it’s “Book of Babalon”.
There are two ways to work with the Qliphoth:
1: With that which is taken as a qliphoth to society (that which is
repressed and taken as a sickness in order to keep control of the sheep) -
and there is no reason in hell why you should be distressed by these, for as
a Magician you are supposed to be able to see a little further (the Universe
is our shelter, it is our twin brother, but a twin brother can hold the keys
to the deepest of all terrors and insanities if you don’t “Know Thyself”)
2: With that which is a personal Qliphoth, and why, I don’t see how can it
be a Qliphoth if it doesn’t disturb you or unbalance you or things around
you. A serious and deep work with the Qliphoths Inside means everything that
would make you panic joined together. It should be the worst thing you can
imagine (in truth, it should be beyond it, that’s why Lovecraft calls it the
“undefinable”). If you are afraid, or don’t agree with the method, don’t
work it. I just don’t see the point of working with the most hideous and
twisted life forces to your soul, if they don’t mean what they should (and
therefore aren’t what they should).

Will, nonetheless, never trembles. And all the images shall gather around
It, to serve It. Will is a God always playing at ease.

Love is the Law, Love under Will.



Terrifying?   Of course it can be very terrifying.   Integration comes
after exposure and (usually cautious) exploration.   Rock climbing is
terrifying for many.   Some get incredibly claustrophobic crawling thru
deep caves.   I used to be utterly terrified late at night when my
parent’s old house creaked after everyone was in bed, and my closet
door opened up all on its own.   Looking back, my earliest memories of
confronting the terrifying had to do with me getting out of bed and
walking over to the closet (with my baseball bat in hand) to see what
had opened the closed door from the inside.   I strongly suspect that
had I remained huddled in my bed with the blankets over my head I
would never have developed an interest in magickal explorations.


I want to add that I have to agree in this:
The Qliphoth get less dangerous the more you totally accept them – allowing
your Ketheric Being, by the use of its hands (Binah and Chokmah) to put
them at place.
But it is like the sulphur at the first stage in Alchemy, if you have
unbalanced ego remains, they will resist the qliphoths (for fear is always
the path to suffering); and doing so, these qliphoths will (re)act, after
all, they have been called for some reason.


For me, it is NOT about putting the Qliphoth in their place.    The
Qliphoth do quite well without me telling them what to do.   It is the
magickian who needs balancing so s/he is better able to
work/play/interact/dance with the Qliphoth.


And here I was about to stay out of it…
I don’t really deal with the Qliphoth at all in any formal way. In
the same way that I avoid heroin or Bank robbery. Though these
practices and habits are enlightening and lucrative to some, I do not
care to test my bravado against them. All too often I hear someone in
the depths of a debilitating addiction or other poisonous process
speaking eloquently about how positive it really is, if only people
could see. I am perfectly fine working the sephiroth as they stand,
though, of course by the very fact that I do so, and work to  keep a
balanced approach, I deal with qliphoth as the imbalanced states of
the system. So I guess that’s how I would see the qliphoth, as forces
out of balance, clogged or otherwise incomplete. With this being
said, I do not take the approach of fear or binding either, but of
vigilant attention. I am not a banisher either, I tend to absorb and
transform, so while I do suggest that the Qliphoth are dangerous in
the sense that they are unbalanced forces, and in this respect agree
with Rob on the necessity of caution, I am not of the opinion that
they are ‘cosmic antimatter’ or deserving of extinction. I’d say it
comes down to the problem of how to deal with ‘evil’. Do we on the
one hand attack it all out, under the assumption that our
righteousness in the matter is unquestionable, or do we embrace it,
and figure that we have no real right to make any such judgment. I
would opt for another tactic than either of these. Neither attack
them nor join their ranks. Watch them carefully, try to attune ones
own behavior, and they tend to complete themselves, ceasing to be
demons, or qliphoth for that matter. Stop the pendulum from swinging
so to speak.


How, pray tell, do you intend to deal with the dissolution of duality
when you advance into the supernals if you do not deal with the

I certainly avoid some things I have seen to be dangerous, like
cigarettes, but I have never found the Qliphoth to be dangerous –
except to my pre-conceived notions.   But every form of magickal
interaction is dangerous to pre-conceived notions, are they not?


Read past the first few sentences of my previous post to learn
exactly how I will go about dealing with the qliphoth…

I did read past the opening paragraphs.   My approach is different
than yours.   I feel integration is needed.    Ever see the movie
“Dark Crystal”?


Well at least someone here seems to get where I’m coming from.
Reviewing my previous posts, I can clearly see that I did NOT say that:
Qliphoth (or any other entity) need to be controlled, OR that they
should be approached as an adversary. Rather, I described them as
energies that were extremely powerful, and “too free”, practically
UNcontrollable! Which is precisely the problem with them…

I DID make an analogy with several wild animals:
i.e. if you swim with Great White sharks, you’re wise to have bars
between you and the sharks. This is in no way “controlling” them, or
being adversarial, merely a sensible precaution, recognizing that
these creatures, doing what they do naturally, have the potential to
cause you great harm. Same with lions and grizzly bears. By all means
interact with them as you see fit, but you’re a damned fool if you
ignore advice that tells you they might take a bite out of you if
they’re so inclined. And you’re an even bigger fool if the only
advice you listen to is from someone who tells you they’re really
quite cuddly and friendly and there’s no reason to healthily fear/
respect them.

I DID state that capturing the image of these forces in, for example,
a piece of artwork, was in my opinion, a form of containment, and a
limitation; for how could a mere piece of artwork express such an
entity in its totality? But I fail to see the connection between
creating art and herding spirits around at the point of a sword.

I don’t see these entities as separate from myself, but then I don’t
see myself as separate from anything else either. So whether they
exist independently from me or not, I really can’t say for sure, but
I suspect they might.

I also don’t see any problem with ascribing results on the material
plane to my magical work: er… forgive me if it sounds stupid, but
isn’t that what’s supposed to happen to magicians? Or can it be that
some people only ascribe results they’re happy with to their magical
work, and put down all the unwanted results to something else, like
the government, or bad luck, or whatever?
I personally don’t recall being rude to any spirit/god/demon/entity,
but I’ve still had things happen that I’d rather hadn’t at the time.
With hindsight, some of those changes have turned out rather well for
me, and I’ve learned a valuable lesson. Others don’t seem to have
turned out that well, but who’s to say? Maybe more time needs to
pass, or maybe I missed the lesson (playing up at the back of the
class, usual:-))

And the inescapable fact is, in my experience, that I never had any
“unwanted results” in my magical work until I began working with the
Qliphoth. That’s fine though: I personally was never interested in
the “fluffy” side of magick. And whilst I wouldn’t be so hasty as to
definitely ascribe other people’s misfortunes or illnesses to their
Qliphothic work, I would from my own experience suggest it for their
consideration, assuming they were open enough to even consider it as
a remote possibility…



I do hear what you are saying in this post. I am big on the whole “no
separate existence” thing,  am not too sure “I” really “exist” let  alone if the
spirits I work with do.
The classic definition of Magick is to cause change to occur in accordance
with One’s Will.
Change is not always comfortable or what our incarnate personalities  expect,
but Change is none the less Stability. Perhaps in the long run, these
unpleasant experiences will be just what you needed to evolve. Which would mean
they were in accordance with your Will, even if your incarnate personality was
not so pleased about it at the time.

Much Love,

93 93/93

Back when I first began to explore magick as an adult, I most
certainly was looking for external results.   As I later used to
phrase that phase of my magick, “I wanted the Universe to give me what
I wanted.”

During my first term at Cornell, I discovered the rare books room.   I
forget what I was looking for, but I stumbled upon a collection of old
grimoires.   Most were not in English so were of no use to me.   But I
found one in English.   I was leafing thru it & came upon a spell
whose purpose was “To cause young women to dance naked in your room
after supper.”   That sure got my attention!   I was a very shy virgin
back then.   So I copied out the instructions, gathered the
ingredients for the incense, then did the spell.   In fact I did it
many times over several months.   No luck.

In the first decade I explored magick, I did a lot of spells, charms,
talismans, rituals to win the Publisher’s Clearing House Million
Dollar sweepstakes, to get particular girls to want to have sex with
me, to influence the loan officer at the bank to give me a mortgage on
an apartment building I wanted to buy.    None of it worked.   I
eventually bought a different building.   No spells.   Just me getting
a fat down payment from my parents, then lying to the bank by telling
them the loan was a parental gift, not loan.

At some point I read an interesting essay.   I forget the author.   I
think it was on Gnostica News, but after all these years, I really
don’t remember.   They guy had gone thru all the many volumes of
Crowley’s diaries, taking notes.   He categorized all the various
spells and rituals Crowley did over decades.  He then took note of
Crowley’s later comments as to whether the ritual worked or not.   He
discovered that money spells had a very low success rate.   Likewise
rituals to attempt to influence other people.   But rituals meant to
give Crowley insight, or to help him get thru a problem had a much
higher success rate.

I thought about it.   I picked thru my 10 years of so magickal record.
I did a similar examination of rituals and results.    When I did a
ritual to gain insight into gematria,  my qabalistic researches
flourished.  When I did a ritual to help me become less shy, that
worked.   After I discovered Lovecraft, I wanted to have wild dreams
like Uncle Howie.   I did ritual and created talismans.   That worked
very well.  But money & sex spells did not work for me.

At that point I had a girlfriend who was very much into the New Age
techniques of affirmations.   I learned that how one phrased what one
wants is important.   I learned to not ask for people to want to fuck
me, but rather for me to evolve into the sort of person girls wanted
to fuck.   That seemed to work much better.

I have always been lacking cash.   I learned to do rituals to help me
become a better money maker.    I was a landlord for a while.   I
focused on rituals which would allow me to exude honesty and
confidence, so prospective tenants wanted to rent from me.   That
worked well.    Now, in my work as a Tarot counselor, I do rituals to
set ritual space as I set up my table at work.   Energy sensitive
people tell me they come to talk to me because I seem trustworthy and
my workspace has good energy.    I don’t do spells to attract
customers or to get customers to tip me with big tips.

I do work with the weather.   I talk to storms coming my way and ask
them to shift a bit so I can keep working.   I never try to compel
storms.   I ask nicely. Sometimes it works.   Sometimes I come to
understand why the storm is coming my way.

When dangerous people threaten me physically, I center and invoke
calmness in me.  I call to my internal reflexes to guide my hands and
feet, rather than me attempting to assert control over the dangerous
person.   My ass has been saved many times by this method.

Back in 1981 I got a speeding ticket from a cop in Buffalo who set me
up.    I tried to hire an attorney but the attorney told me, “Nobody
wins in Buffalo traffic court.   Best to just plead guilty.”   When an
attorney turns down money because the case is hopeless, it sure did
not lift my spirits.   I invoked Maat to help guide me in telling the
truth in court.    The cop lied thru his teeth.   When the judge saw
me scowling, he asked me if my memory was different than the police
officer’s memory.  I corrected what the cop had said, then added lots
of details the cop never mentioned.   The judge believed me, dismissed
the charge, and scolded the cop for making shit up and setting me up
because he did not approve of my Mohawk and leather jacket.

For me, magick is about helping me to understand myself better and to
help me work better with others.   As I am working with me internally,
rather than trying to manipulate the external world, it is far easier
to learn from mistakes without external boomerang effects.


Alobar wrote:
The judge believed me, dismissed
the charge, and scolded the cop for making shit up and setting me up
because he did not approve of my Mohawk and leather jacket.

For me, magick is about helping me to understand myself better and to
help me work better with others.   As I am working with me internally,
rather than trying to manipulate the external world, it is far easier
to learn from mistakes without external boomerang effects.

First of all, would love to see a photo of you with a Mohawk!

I have only resorted to magick to manipulate the external world on a few
occasions, and in the majority of cases it worked, but usually with what I
call “collateral damage”, although your term “boomerang effect” is more
fitting.  I say “resorted to” because I’ve always subscribed to the view
that one should first exhaust one’s own resources before petitioning a
“higher” power for help — be that parents, the government, gods, angels or

I’ve only thrown one curse in my life, and it worked with a sort of poetic
justice: the target was a person who obtained my parents’ car, which I was
responsible for, got into a conflict with some hoodlums at a downtown bar,
who then trashed the car, leaving me in an awkward position, to say the
least.  A few days after the spell he fell asleep at the wheel and wrecked
his car — but also took out about 10 other cars along the street.  I felt
bad for the other people who suffered that “collateral damage”.  As a result
there were a lot of bad feelings & conflict with other of my acquaintances,
I was called a devil worshipper, etc., so I would not recommend throwing
curses.  They just result in bad karma all the way around.

Another example is more win-win: one of the times in college when I was flat
broke I performed an operation of Jupiter to get the money mojo flowing.
The next morning I was informed by the (bursar’s office?) that my student
aid, which had been in limbo, had been approved so I had $566 at my
disposal.  Later than day I got a call from my mom to inform me that the
bank informed her my last statement was wrong — that I had $100 left in the
account.  So, from being flat broke one day, I became “rich” to the tune of
$666!  And here’s the collateral effect: that night I was sitting with my
girlfriend in the TV room at her dorm, we were sitting close to the candy
machine.  Somebody walks up to buy some candy, got it, pulled the lever
again and another candy bar dropped out.  Another pull, another candy.
Somehow the machine suddenly started dispensing free candy, the word spread
and by the end of the evening the machine was drained.

I have been very selective in attempting practical magick, and maybe that’s
why my success rate has been good.  I consider “luck” a real physical force,
and it is possible to deplete the store one has, so it pays to be selective
in drawing on it.  The vast majority of my magick proper has been to alter
myself internally, as you say, Alobar.  I think it was Spare who once
defined magick as “the ability to attract without asking”.  As long as I am
centered, balanced, and following the course of my True Will, things seem to
go well enough for me so I don’t risk the wrath of the gods by hitting them
up too much for favors.



When I embarked on my TOTO probationary practice in the early 90s, as an
adjunct I worked briefly with Amphrodias the qlipha of the path of Aleph.

Days after I was rushed to hospital …my liver and kidneys packed up
concurrently  and I came within a whisker of physical death. My sister in
the week prior told me I had the most dirty horrible aura she’d ever seen. I
lived a very hedonistic life at the time and I think the magical work
brought to head the dark side of this…a crystallization of the nasties.
Was working with such an entity when I was in such imbalanced state   and
with little magical experience foolish?  Of course it was but to quote the
words of William Blake “if a fool persists in his folly he doth become
wise”.  Six weeks later and my physical ailments totally disappeared and the
specialists who worked with me were completely dumbfounded on my
inexplicable turnaround.

Would I suggest to my kids to play with the qliphoth? No but I’d probably
advise them not to stroke stray dogs either.  In my life I’ve stroked a lot
of “stray dogs” and I’ve lived a very colorful existence as a direct result
of not following other people’s advice.  So in a sense I agree with both Rob
and Alobar…and I think in general serious magical work of any nature
results in the acceleration of the evolutionary process.  Healing crisis’s
are an inevitable result.   It depends on how fast you want to go.

I was the fool that rushed in where the qliphoth fear to tread.  Yes I lost
all my money, my home and nearly my life etc…but I learned so much in the
process…and when the lessons had been learned I made it all back… and
then some… and couldn’t be happier.

Thanks guys!



Greetings, all!

Alobar: I was thinking “hornet’s nest” to about this discussion; this list
has been pretty quiet for weeks but discussion of the Qliphoth certainly
changed that!

My questions is directed to all the participants who reported working with
the Qliphoth:
What was your methodology?  Was it based on Grant’s Grimoire “Nightside of
Eden” or was it in a more general sense?  I gather from Simon’s comments
that his work was during a TOTO probation that he may have used “Nightside”
as a guide, but what of you others?

I have never worked consciously with the Qliphoth, but I suppose I have
dealt with imbalances in my psyche as I skipped along the Path.  Simon
mentions being rushed to the hospital when his liver and kidneys “packed
up”; my crisis point was similar in that I called for an ambulance to take
me to the hospital when the dreaded DT’s took hold of me.  After a week of
heavy drinking (and very little eating or drinking water) I had reached a
spiritual and physical low (my blood level of potassium was nearly nil and
sodium was very low, and death from heart attack or stroke was probably
hours away if not for emergency medical help).  I could feel a flood of
negative energy filling my body from BELOW, if that makes any sense.  I was
convinced that whatever this thing was that was flooding my body and brain
was trying to kill me… and it nearly did.

This crisis was, although frightening and extremely unpleasant, probably the
best thing that ever happened to me.  After crossing this particular Abyss,
my psyche was reformulated in a very real and permanent way.  I found I
didn’t need counseling or Alcoholics Anonymous to deal with drinking,
because the demon Ethyl no longer had a hold on me.  The demon had been
vanquished, or rather assimilated.  And I renewed spiritual work, which I
had abandoned years before.  I wouldn’t be talking to you on this list if it
had not been for confronting my demons.  Some 17 months after the crisis, I
feel more balanced, earthed, and growing spiritually than I ever have.

So, I think I’m leaning towards Alobar’s way of thinking on this one.
Trying to control or bind unbalanced entities such as Ethyl does not work in
the long run.  Getting down and dirty-dancing with her can be messy, but
after it is all over we can still be friends.


My method was simply to use my artwork as a means of making contact.
I used Grant’s Nightside of Eden as a starting point, of course, but
was open to whatever form appeared, rather than allow Grant’s vision
to formulate my own.
No banishing or bindings were conducted, nor any limitation imposed,
although as I said before, the very act of creating art is a form of
(unintentional) limitation: why do you think it’s called “capturing”
an image?
Prior to attempting any artistic endeavor, I would draw the sigil of
the Guardian, then sleep with it under the pillow for several nights.
Invariably, I’d dream of the entity, then it would later reify itself
as I sketched in my waking hours. Sometimes, the spirit would appear
fully formed, and I’d be merely sketching its portrait as if they
were sat right in front of me (sometimes, they were!). Other times,
I’d only get vague impressions via dream, and the spirit wouldn’t
appear until I began drawing. Some drawings remain unchanged from
their initial conception, others have been reworked several times, as
we get to know each other better. Some spirits have changed entirely
in form since their original appearance: I therefore think they
appear in forms that they think we’ll prefer or understand. They seem
to be entirely fluid, and rifle through our subconscious for imagery,
like children dressing up in old clothes in the attic. Some of my
visions correspond to Grant’s, others differ considerably.

The attached images I consider at this point in time as still in


I started out with Grant’s Nightside of Eden when it first came into
print.    I had a  synthesizer keyboard.   Grant gave musical notes
for the various Qliphoth.    I depressed the appropriate key on the
synthesizer, then adjusted the various controls to get a sound which
caused shivers.   Then I taped the key down, and went to bed with the
single note playing all night while I slept.

Eventually the synthesizer blew a chip so I used other methods.
Conscious dreaming was always a key for me.

Maybe several years into my astral investigations, I came to an odd
thought.   I wondered what it would be to just enter Daäth with no
particular tunnel in mind to explore.   I began doing that.   At
first, all was pretty muddled and confusing.  Like a Salvador Dali
dreamscape.  Once I got over my queasiness at the confusingness and
ever-shifting nature, it began to resolve.    I located the connecting
link from Dayside to Nightside Tree, but when I went thru the link,
the Nightside Tree was vastly different than reported by Grant.

I never thought Grant was “wrong” in his assessment, but I was not
doubting my own senses either.   I eventually came to a working
hypothesis, which still seems correct (at least for me, anyway).  It
seems that Nightside is un-manifest until someone goes exploring.
Then the Nightside Tree manifests in a way which the explorer expects
it to be.   If pre-conceived notions are kept to a minimum, Nightside
manifests in a way which is appropriate for that particular explorer.

For me, there are no Paths, as such.  The Tree is shaped like the
Dayside Tree, with Yesod connected to Daäth and vice versa.   Dayside
Tree can be seen and felt as a ghostly background hologram.    The
Nightside Tree has no Paths.   Each Sphere is a self-contained world
with mythologies, entities, interactions, etc.

Within each Sphere-World are hidden translocation devices on the
ground, on the sides of buildings, under water, or suspended in air,
where one can shift from a discrete point in one Sphere to the exact
analogous place in some other Sphere.  Mirrors and reflections, for
example, are the translocation devices to Yesod here on Dayside
Malkuth.     Only from Dayside Malkuth one has astral visions, rather
than actually stepping thru the reflections.   From a sphere on
Nightside, one falls thru the device, much like in a Jean Cocteau

Once one is within a Sphere, one does not see or apprehend the entire
Tree, nor can one perceive the Dayside Tree.   So utilizing a
trans-location plate, I am clueless as to where I am going.   But
strongly analogous scenery, entities, and story will be in progress
when I arrive.  By using the translocation plates, I can gain
different perspectives on the mythological dreams which are playing
out at a particular location.    I may or may not find my way out of
the Sphere.   If I can leave, I get to see the entire Nightside Tree
in perspective and realize on what “stage” I have been interacting
with the mythic entities.


My inspiration is from my own interpretation of the chod rite, i invite all the demons and hungry ghosts to feed upon me when i am depressed,  Some other ideas were taken from working with kali as a consumer of desire, as i lay and submit myself to the demons and hungry ghosts they feed upon the depression and stress and anxiety or what ever ails me. i don’t think of it as qliphothic work more as shadow work.

Another side of my inspiration comes from tibetan thinking regarding deity, that a deity has a peaceful and wrathful face, i have started to apply that to kabbalistic thinking so each sphere that appears as opposite in qliphoth can bet an unbalanced expression of the day side, not separate or distinct but two sides of the same coin. Demonic angels and angelic demons. seeds of day and night revolving into and out of each other without distinction, twilight expressions neither fully of the essence of night or day, but sometimes forming that expression. temporal forms and structures with fluid foundations, shifting points of perception and relationship.

My focus is mainly on my own act of submission to the experience, something i find really difficult as i am a bit of a control freak and find feeling powerless really difficult, i have learnt i have all sorts of sneaky ways to remain in control, which is useful to know and try to unpack as well. I tried becoming more angry and scary than they were for a while, it worked for a short time, but an act it a hard thing to keep up, so that in itself becomes an act of submission through exhaustion. Eventually the inauthentic self seems to give more and more of itself to the experience, and they seem very very hungry, giving so much away leaves a lot of room for freedom and new experience.

I think perhaps a dangerous thing to do is to approach this without any personal head fuckery and emotional shit going on, as they need food, its like inviting somebody in for a meal without having any food, they will create the food they need to eat if you don’t bring your own or resist offering to them,  it just seems courteous to feed your guests. I don’t think i know anybody with no problems at all, so it shouldn’t be a problem for most people

Wolf Angel


Come to think of it, I have done more work with the Qliphoth than I
had realized.

I believe I began with certain practices related to Babalon, the Qliphoths
being the abominations to which She is Mother and Womb. The main method here
had no real limitations, except Love (can love be called a limitation?).
Through meditation, evocation or sex magick I would embrace and overwhelm
all the Qliphoths hidden in me and in the Universe that her unconditional
love could reach with me as its bearer. At first (as I still sometimes do),
I combined this with art, I wrote a book of prose and poetry describing my
experiences as I descended trough the Abyss of Apsu and it’s seven
veils (like Innanna to meet Ereshkigal). As a result of this I lost many
things I thought I depended on, got in a state of frenzy and despair, and
next I was living the detached life of a Zen, free from everything,
but enjoying it all. With that I became a libertine, and was next guided to
a great Magician that taught me the necessary Discipline to engage with
success in the Art.

I believed I next left the Qliphoths aside (except in relation to my
self-knowledge or introspection work – in this work all that was unbalanced
in my astral matrix was to become alive through a fight to life or death),
until I worked the Forgotten Ones through Maat Magick. I started with Hunger
using Nema’s method and did the next six through evocation in the Triangle
of Art and specific rituals appointed there. I believe this work was quite
different from the one I indulged in with Babalon. While before the
ingredient was Love, now it was Pure Experience. I don’t think I had many
things to lose at that time, I was looking at my work like as if a Master of
the Temple, from the Desert, so I can only say I gained a lot, inside and
outside. Again I met through the Currents opened with the help of the
Forgotten Ones, serious people with which to work Magick.

Since then I have the Qliphoths integrated in my Magickal Work in general.
I work them through sex magick in order to achieve altered states of
consciousness and gnosis (again the causing of disorder in the Demiurge,
passing trough this rift, and achieving the Light on the other side). You
can say the limitation here is the propose, the Qliphoths can be consecrated
and used to a single purpose.

I engaged on them through the study of ONA’s (Order of Nine Angles) methods
(related to Lovecraft). It consists, for example, on going to a savage place
of mystery and awe, or just going trough an unusual environment and
experience, and chanting a name of a Dark God, evoke him until you fall
asleep or enter trance, hallucinate, or something; open a gate to them
inside a gem, trough sex magick. I think the idea of the ONA is really that
you get devoured by the Qliphoth and be able to devour through them (a form
of terrorism, really eheh). My conditions at this stage were quite similar
to those of the Work with the Forgotten Ones and I felt no
especially painful feedback on my life. But I saw a lot of chaotic things
happening out there, with pleasure, for they all led, as I expected, to
gratification and improvement of the people involved.

I engaged with the Qliphoth trough dreaming practices, as they are taught
by Castaneda (the only limitation here is that they are targeting DIRECLY
to the change of ones direct perception). The side effects were very
positive but they can be a little frightening because of the shift given in
our daily reality.
(Also read “Luciferian Path” by Michael Ford – former member of “Temple of
Seth” – and it’s work with Ahriman, he goes to the Witches Sabbath with the
Qliphoth in dreams; I have been there just today and ended in a party where,
in the end, a doctor tortured my whole body while I laughed with the feeling
of light and spirit inside my flesh)

By the use of a Sybil that embodied a Qliphothic path in the Tree (I gave it
a gift every night before sleep, during 50 – Nun – days). I asked this
Sybil to take care of a problem of mine, I expected it to bring me something
I was desiring and gradually consume all the unresolved issues that were
blocking the way to this realization. Instead it resolved the problem quite
differently, he devoured it whole and now there is not much to desire. But
anyway, there is not much to unbalance me either.

By simply indulging on the Qliphothian tendencies – whatever is the method
you want – to transcend it (well we do this simply by living, the difference
is in the perception of the Magickian)

By working with the demons through evocation:
You assign them a mission (I believe you see the tree by it’s fruits); the
result is a son of the demon/qliphoth, and it may be a person, a job,
whatever, then dance. This is the more concrete (and earth to
earth) way that I know of working with the qliphoths. This method lets me
enjoy, but also sets me through hell.

Finally, working with shamanism is a very healthy way of dealing with the
unbalanced life, you descend to the underworld to find the missing animal
forces and bring them back to you in order to heal.



Greetings All,
93 / 696

Thank you all so much for chiming in on my initial
request regarding shadow work / qlipoth.

Obviously, there will be many takes on this, what
could be more subject to personal perception than
something that almost sub-liminally affects us?

When I wrote this in, I had begun shadow work. In
fact, I had begun it before Katrina (I live in New
Orleans) & the 6 week break gave me a lot of time to
digest what I had begun.  When I recommenced, things
went to s*** after a few probing sessions, I really
did not want to let go of some behaviors.

Oddly, I can see the validity in both Rob & Alobars’
approaches.   The concept of naming or painting or
giving some image to these elusive, repressed deep
thoughts seems a good place to start, but not with the
intention of “herding demons against their will”.  So,
I backed away for awhile & wrote in here & have probed
around  a few other sources.

As to whether these things are “entities” or not, that
is, independent sentient beings “outside” of
ourselves, lemme digress.

While evacuated from N.O., we spent 6 weeks in a
gorgeous state park,   There was a crossroads there
that I would visit at night & call to Papa Legba, in
this case it would be more Eshu Odara (divine
messenger of transformation).  I have a good relation
with the warriors & get instantaneous response.
Oddly,  each time, Hecate (!!??!!)  would show up,
from up & behind me.  I just approached it as
“Welcome…”   She has always been a strong protector
for me, but certainly a mixed bag of pantheons here, I
wasn’t sure what to make of it ; I took it in stride.

Shortly after returning, I was “approached -contacted”
by a Spirit I was totally unfamiliar with: Pomba
Gira.  EVERYDAY, she was showing herself in images (&
I don’t mean things that ‘looked’ like her, but
paintings & sculptures that were deliberately OF her).
Or people would bring her up, out of the blue. It was
nuts, but I knew I should pay attention. I went to
Alobar for a reading (remember?) & it was very
helpful, he even went so far as to give me over to
someone who worked with this Spirit  (thank you,
again).   Eventually, a local Bokor lent me two books,
one specifically about her in the Quimbanda trad, the
other in Palo.  When he did he said in his inimitable
laugh “Maaaa—aannnn are you gonna have fun….” I
knew That couldn’t be good.    As it turns out, her
work is done at a “T” in the roads. Hmmm -Hecate,
where 3 ways meet, guide through the “Underworld”, but
with a very big twist.   She is the wife of Eshu, who
as Odara can help transform consciousness.  In some of
these traditions, her “magical” name is (get this) :
Qlipoth!   Apparently, they had some ceremonial
influence down in Brazil & made this correlation. I
was very struck by this.   Duh…

I have found a competent teacher / guide who has been
through this work & helped many others through it, but
my aversion to some of the crap I dredged up was so
intense, I turned it toward her, questioning if she
knew what the hell she was doing. She does.    After
incorporating the particular form of Pomba Gira,
allowing her to help & receiving a sigil that is
mind-boggling in its’ simple, accurate directness,
plus a method of invoking (her), these particular
problems in the material plane vanished, in a sense.
It has allowed a view that I can best describe as
indifferent, & a freedom.  I have a long way to go,
but I have always been surprised at how many magicians
don’t apply themselves to this type of “inner work” .
I have even found, in my research, that there are
sects that believe this to be so dangerous that they:
“Leave it chained to the bottom of the ocean” (!).
Yikes.  If I wanted to stick my head in the sand I’d
go to Church.

Also, it would appear that one can incorporate &
harmonize these elements of one’s psyche, or “destroy”
them, or keep them in your back pocket for future use.
(Like when Medea the witch told Jason not to kill the
dragon guarding the Golden Fleece, that it might “come
in handy later”, she put it to sleep).  But, they must
be recognized & given some “form” mentally, in order
to deal with them. They are as sneaky & sneakier than
you thought you could (make them) be. If given form &
free reign, I could see a disastrous situation ala
egregore or physically ruining the person or worse
yet, that they project sub-shadows out onto the world
(remember Hitler?) they are our worst fears &
nightmares; to empower that freely, well, that won’t
be my approach.

Again, thank you all & I hope I didn’t start a feud.
>From my point of view, these various takes are very
helpful, equally.  I believe you are all correct.

Ulra  303
aka  Wade

P.S., it is so refreshing after a lifetime of practice
to be called a newbie!
I once asked my Tai Chi teacher, B.P.Chan why he
didn’t write a book (he was in his later 70′s) & he
looked at me & said “Because I’ve only been doing this
for 50 years.”     I am, however a Babe in regards to
this work & I understand it never really “ends”.

Thanks for stirring up the hornets’ nest.    I feel it is useful for
people to discuss their perspectives and experiences in dealing with
with the Qliphoth, even if we disagree..

I had not realized you were the instigator of this discussion.    Yes,
I remember you, and who I suggested you contact.


Can matter exist without anti-matter, or the universe as we seek to
know it without pairs of opposites? Is not Magick as dangerous as any other
high-voltage laboratory experiment?
This has been exactly the sort of debate that the HMList was intended
for, and if no one objects I may try to string the whole thread together as
an article for Silver Star.

~  Shade

“Nachiketa learned from the kind of death
The whole discipline of meditation.
Freeing himself from all separateness,
He won immortality in Brahman.
So blessed is everyone who knows the Self!

OM shanti shanti shanti…”

-Katha Upanishad

I was thinking earlier that, with all of the varied and interesting
perspectives that have been coming forth, that this could even be a
good topic for a book!  Carl Jung must be rolling in his grave, wishing he
could write it.  An article is a great place to start!  I say, barring
objections, go for it!


By all means!   Sounds like a good idea to me.   I never seem to be
able to put together articles for submission.